In this episode of Brave New Us, Dr. Nathanael Blake joins host Samantha Stephenson to discuss his bold new book, Victims of the Revolution: How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All. Together, they unpack how a movement that promised personal freedom has led to cultural confusion, emotional harm, and deep philosophical contradictions.
We explore:
What sets Victims of the Revolution apart from other critiques of the Sexual Revolution
Why the revolution’s “freedom” often means detaching the self from the body
The real-life consequences for the most vulnerable—especially women and children
What a more truthful and embodied view of human nature might look like
Dr. Blake reveals the philosophical roots and political consequences of sexual liberation—and why reclaiming a sane, integrated view of the human person is key to healing what’s broken.
Mentioned in the Episode
Victims of the Revolution: How Sexual Liberation Hurts Us All
Nathanael Blake at the EPPC: https://eppc.org/author/nathanael_blake/
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Grab a copy of Samantha’s book Reclaiming Motherhood—a theology of the body for motherhood in the age of reproductive technologies.
TRANSCRIPT
Samantha: [00:00:00] Welcome to Brave New Us, where we explore what it means to be human in the age of biotechnology. Today I am here with Dr. Nathaniel Blake, fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, and author of the provocative new book, victims of the Revolution, how Sexual Liberation Hurts. Us all. If you've ever felt like something deeper is unraveling beneath the surface of our cultural battles, this conversation is for you.
Samantha: In this episode, we'll unpack how the ideologies of the sexual revolution, abortion IVF, transgenderism and the hookup culture are not isolated trends, but parts of a broader revolt against the body and its meaning. Dr. Blake takes us into the philosophical and political roots of this revolution and why a revolution that promised freedom has instead left so many fragmented, broken, and chained in its wake. Is this really progress or a [00:01:00] form of abandonment dressed up as freedom?
Samantha: What does it cost us to treat the body as raw material to be molded at will? And how do we recover a vision of human dignity that can withstand the cultural storms ahead? Let's find out. Dr. Blake. Welcome to Brave Newness.
Dr. Blake: Thank you very much for having me.
Samantha: Thank you for being here. So to start off, I wanna say there's not a shortage of critiques on the sexual revolution. So let's first talk about what makes victims of the revolution different. What new lens are you bringing to the conversation?
Dr. Blake: Yes, so I think you're right. There have been a lot of books and a lot of really good books on the sexual revolution,
Samantha: I.
Dr. Blake: I think that there are, from a Christian perspective, there's a need to update our critiques because the sexual revolution keeps moving. 10 years ago, gender ideology was something on the fringes of the
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: A lot of people wouldn't have been able to define transgenderism or say, is a trans [00:02:00] woman actually a woman, or is that a man or.
Samantha: Right.
Dr. Blake: suddenly that's in just a decade become the center of our political and cultural contentions. So one, there's a need to update, to adapt as a sexual revolution continues to roll out new iterations, but also a lot of the critiques we're seeing, while I'm very glad to see them from people like Mary Harrington and Louise Perry, do not go far enough. don't provide a Christian lens in that is able to explain in depth what's going on. They don't provide answers,
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: They can sense that something's wrong with our culture, with our sexual culture, with relations between men and women, and they offer some good critiques, but they can't say how things can go right, because they're fairly ungrounded.
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: So the My goal is really to help bridge that divide and also to rely a great deal on sources that would be taken as [00:03:00] authoritative by those who are in favor of the sexual revolution or sexual, or.
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: Liberalism. So I rely a lot on the New York Times and the Atlantic and the New Yorker and publications of that nature to say, even if we accept the narratives the uh, reporting of those who are culturally in favor
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: sexual revolution, it's still clear that there's something that's gone very wrong. then here is why Christianity can both diagnose the problem and provide the resources to combat it.
Samantha: I love that in my, um, my graduate work thesis and things were on Christian Catholics, uh, theological anthropology. So I love to dive deep into that. I hope we can unpack that a little bit here. Uh, later on in, later on in our conversation. Um, before that, you, you spoke a little bit. But was there one particular moment or story that really sparked the idea for this book and made you realize that now was the moment to [00:04:00] write this?
Dr. Blake: So there was a moment. Now no one really sets out to be a professional prude. I'm going to.
Samantha: Well, maybe, maybe. Uh, monks and nuns,
Dr. Blake: Yeah, but, you don't really say,
Samantha: the best.
Dr. Blake: is gonna be writing about, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm gonna be the male equivalent of a church lady or whatever. But, um, I've been writing on these issues for a while now and talking with Ryan Anderson, who is the president at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and lives fairly close by my family was visiting his, we were. Talking about work naturally. 'cause you know, what else would we do? Um, anyway, uh, so yes, we talked about it and an idea of a book turned into an actual proposal, funding was secured, and eventually the book was published. So it started in a living room, and that's where books come from. But really, this, what this is about is where babies come from and why our culture has gone so wrong [00:05:00] with regard to that.
Samantha: Excellent. So, um, you mentioned earlier that you rely pretty heavily on the words of activists themselves. Um, transgender advocates, abortion proponents, defenders of hookup culture. Why let their own words carry the weight of the critique?
Dr. Blake: Well, I think. reason is the natural law finds a way. So the natural law, when you mentioned theological anthropology, it's the belief, it's the truth that God has made us a certain way, that there is a human nature, we are fulfilled, in some ways we are harmed in other ways, and that this is all tied together. So that the Christian moral ethos is not simply an arbitrary imposition, it is not something that is, um, simply ceremonial for us. Instead, it is rooted in our nature and who we are in what allows us to thrive and flourish and consequently. If [00:06:00] this is true, if the Christian sexual understanding is true of how we are to live sexually, how we are to view marriage and children and all of those things, then we should expect to find even in people who are not Christians, even in people who are rebellion against Christian sexual ethics and Christian sexual teaching, that there is still an awareness that something's gone wrong, a realization that something is not right. And that's what I really looked for. In these works. So if I'm talking if I'm writing about Michelle Goldberg at the New York Times, or I'm citing The Atlantic talking about a sex recession and reporting on how, uh, gen Z and millennials just aren't having a lot of sex, well that shows. That something went wrong, even from the very perspective of the sexual revolutionaries.
Dr. Blake: If we have a movement that's promising great sex and authenticity and human wellbeing and not delivering on that, and its own proponents are realizing there's a problem, I think that's a very [00:07:00] powerful way to address these problems. And then to step in and. Christianity provides the answers as to why it's gone wrong and how we can try to restore things and redirect people towards ways of authentic flourishing.
Samantha: Yeah. Um, is there one or two examples of that? Were, were very poignant to you that really stood out and resonate and continue to come back to you as you are, um, as you were writing and as you continue your work.
Dr. Blake: So. One, we haven't talked about the. Specifics of transgenderism, but I think Chloe Cole's testimony and she's become one of the most, probably the most prominent detransition, someone who transitioned in her case as a child, uh, went on puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones around 13 or so. Had a double mastectomy at 15, and then realized.
Dr. Blake: Before her 18th birthday that this was a mistake. [00:08:00] She was not a boy trapped in a girl's body. She was just a girl who was trying to deal with issues as so many adolescent girls are,
Samantha: Yeah.
Dr. Blake: in the age of social media of easy access to pornography and so on, has really now become a wonderful spokesperson for why gender transition is wrong, especially for children. But her. Story, which I think I, uh, quote heavily from one of her early interviews with Jay Richards of the Heritage Foundation has really stuck with me, especially these things where she talked about learning in sociology class about the importance of breastfeeding as a way for mothers to bond with children and realizing that had been taken from her. that's one instance that really stuck with me.
Samantha: Yeah. Gosh. So, um, so important to hear those actual voices and, and stories to really understand, um, the depth of how these things are [00:09:00] resonating through people's lives. Um. Now you go through, you know, several examples of people in groups affected by the sexual revolution. Um, maybe you can mention those here.
Samantha: And I'm really curious to know who do you think has borne the deepest wounds and why do you think their suffering gets so little attention?
Dr. Blake: Yeah. So I talk through the issues of the sexual revolution in a few sequentially to some extent. So I talk about how relations between men and women have been harmed, that instead of being, uh, more fulfilling, more authentic, instead, they're frequently not happening. And when they are happening, they're happening in a way that is harmful.
Dr. Blake: Men and women are being formed against each other. We just saw. A few days before we're recording this, a very long piece in The New York Times where the author complained about men she's trying to date again [00:10:00] her marriage fell apart for reasons that I won't get into right now, and it, she's just finding men won't commit. that's one problem is that men and women are finding it really hard, harder than in the past. Based on the data we have to connect with each other. And then this ties in with the issue of abortion. The sexual revolution requires the violence of abortion. So that is something that obviously has taken many millions of lives. And it also hurts those whom it doesn't kill. Abortion, as I say, hardens the hearts. It doesn't stop. It makes our entire culture worse, more callous, less full of solidarity and sympathy, and instead more selfish.
Samantha: Right.
Dr. Blake: I mentioned, uh, Chloe Cole. So I talked about gender transition, how it's this rebellion against the body, this rejection of the givenness of our nature and our being as male and female. talk about the LGBT [00:11:00] movement, um, and how the LGB really gave rise to the T and how that. Is a culmination of an effort to see ourselves as identified through sexual desires. So instead of, as a Christian would say, identifying with Christ, or as a pagan philosopher might say, identifying with our rational self, we identify with our base desires, our sexuality. So I talk through all of these things and how in each case there's a false anthropology at work, false understanding of the human person. I talk about victims. Our culture loves to talk about victims and victimhood, except when it comes to our sex lives. We don't focus on that. We don't want to hear about how social justice might require sexual restraint. So I raise that issue, and I would say the most victimized, I think, are the lives, those whose lives are lost in the service of sexual liberation. The children who are aborted, but secondarily, I would say young women. think young women are really struggling. [00:12:00] Not in terms of their careers, not in terms of their education, they're doing well there, but in terms of loneliness, in terms of finding someone who will love and to cherish them in terms of forming the family relations husband and children that provide so much meaning life.
Dr. Blake: And I think men are suffering too, obviously, is they also struggle to form those relations. But it does seem like young women in particular are depressed and anxious and lonely.
Samantha: Hmm. Yeah, that, that, um, goes for podcast listeners who will listen to the whole season. We have an interview with Dr. Katherine lic who. Uh, had wrote the book, Hannah's Children and really talks about women's happiness and um, and the women in her book and her study testify to the data that you're referring to of women's happiness and unhappiness, and that women who have many children find great meaning in it and are very.
Samantha: Um, blessed [00:13:00] by and happier because of the choices that they made to bear many children, even though it's obviously a, a great sacrifice. So I hope listeners will tune in for that episode as well on that topic. But absolutely, I think you're right. Um, we also had an episode with. Uh, Katie Faust, who is the president of them before us, and you wanna talk about the ways that children have been harmed and are being harmed by the sexual revolution, by divorce culture and things like that.
Samantha: She really gets to the heart of that. So I would direct listeners to those episodes to dive deeper on those. In addition to obviously reading more about in your book, there is so much to unpack here. Um, you argued that one of the most. Profound lies of the sexual revolution is that our bodies are mere raw material, something we can be reshaped or overridden at will, which I think is obviously, um, maybe not, obviously, I think [00:14:00] is very clearly not the way that, uh, genuine.
Samantha: Christian anthropology understands our bodies, but I don't think that it's obvious or apparent to many Christians. I think many of us have absorbed that way of thinking about our bodies, um, in a freaky Friday. Sort of we can get rid of the body type of way. Um. But not as a constitutive part of our identity.
Samantha: So how does this view show up in practices like abortion IVF gender transition, and what is the alternative, genuine, uh, vision that can lead to real human flourishing?
Dr. Blake: All right. Um, that's a big question. So I will say yes. I just read Hand His Children, uh, finished that a couple weeks ago. Great book, and I'm sure that's great conversation. Katie Faust also does awesome work. So those sound like great interviews. Um, uh, I would say that [00:15:00] from. So the rejection of the body as essential to our identity. On the one hand, it seems very odd for something that prioritizes bodily pleasure so much as a sexual revolution does. After all, if sexual pleasure is supposed to be so all consuming, such a wonderful thing, the body be venerated? But the body then has simply become a means to the end of pleasure. And furthermore, it's been stripped of its normative nature, or at least it our understanding of its normative nature. After all, if the goal is sexual pleasure, then it doesn't really matter who you're having that sexual pleasure with, how you're having it, and so on. So long as everything's consensual, that's the only remaining boundary is. Consent to an understanding of the body is meant for the union of male and female within a particular relationship that of marriage and so on. And I'll get back to that in just a moment. But we can see this apply to issues of sexuality between men and [00:16:00] women where we have really. To our detriment as a culture forgotten the importance of differences between between men and women sexually. Men and women are not the same. And it's not just about our plumbing, rather, it is about the entire person and how we experience sexuality, what our sexual desires are like, and how those are then supposed to. Be meant to be channeled for the union of men and women. So we have problems in particular with pornography, which is reshaping men's sexual desires. So one of the things that I been earlier, you asked about things that have stuck with me or shocked me a bit. The extent to which sexual strangulation has become normalized among young men is genuinely horrifying. And we again, just a few weeks before we're recording this podcast, there was a piece in The Guardian, very left wing [00:17:00] British newspaper about the normalization of sexual strangulation and how it's become very common. horrifying. And that's one example of how the differences between men and women Shaped our culture very badly because we thought pornography was harmless. Well, no, it shapes in particular how men view the world and then it warps it and then it, by ignoring the differences between men and women, we also ignore the physical differences in strength on average between men and women. So women are actually, women are being hurt by this. Women are being victimized by this, but we don't want to kink shame anyone. Well, I think we should. I mean, we should kink shame people, men who are strangling women. Absolutely. So that's one example in abortion, again, this rejection of our natural bodies and the natural differences between men and women has led to us to treat, um, male autonomy as normative.
Dr. Blake: Right? The ideal is sort of a 28-year-old, I dunno, [00:18:00] investment banker who's unattached and free and can do what he wants. And women in Leia, Resco Ha Sergeant has a great book coming out on this, but women are treated as defective because of the fact that human reproduction is not asymmetric or is asymmetric.
Dr. Blake: It's not symmetrical. So women are expected to conform to this male ideal of independence and autonomy, which is false even for men, but it's easier for men to approximate that. And consequently, the dependence of pregnancy, the dependence of caring for young children is denigrated. It's looked down on, it's treated as something that's wrong. That then of course encourages abortion because women are told that to be equal to men, they have to have effectively the same reproductive strategy as men. And you just can't shoehorn women into that because that's the very nature of the differences between us and [00:19:00] then transgenders when we already talked about it. But yeah, the idea that we're meat legos in Mary Harrington's phrase, we can reshape our bodies in accordance with our will, which follows from the idea that our bodies. Can be used sexually, however we want. Well, if we can use 'em sexually, then why? For whatever we want without any normative constraints, why can't we use them in whatever way we want?
Dr. Blake: Whether that means chopping parts off, trying to add parts on taking hormones, uh, from the other sex or so on. All of why not if our bodies have no meaning other than that which we subjectively assign to them. But all of these things hurt us. Um, so
Samantha: Yeah.
Dr. Blake: to return to the second part of the question, the Christian alternative, our bodies matter.
Dr. Blake: Christianity teaches that our bodies are intrinsic to who we are. We are body and soul united, and this is. Important and it shows up in three major Christian doctrines, at least [00:20:00] creation. God made us this way, male and female. These are intrinsic to who we are and our purpose in this life. Secondly, incarnation. God had a body. God has a body. God will have a body world without end in the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ. To denigrate the body is to denigrate the incarnation. To deny the importance of the body is to deny the importance of the incarnation. It is to Christ's godhood
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: and then finally, of course, resurrection. Now we don't fully know what our resurrected bodies will be like. We have only small glimpses of it, but we will have bodies in heaven. We don't just, we're not going to be immaterial spirits with clouds and, you know, sort of ghostly harps. we will have bodies, we will be resurrected physically because again, that is who we are made to be is that union of body and soul. [00:21:00] To reject the importance of the body to reject the givenness of the body ultimately to put oneself in conflict with all of these very important, these essential Christian doctrines.
Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. I think that, um, all of that is critical, but really the profound implications of the reality of the incarnation for our embodiment, I mean, for what that means, for what it means to be embodied persons, um, is so beautiful and so profound. And I think also. Um, what that does and beyond even what we're talking about here today, but what that does for how we understand the nature of suffering and the redemptive possibilities that can come out of suffering.
Samantha: I mean, nobody wants to run towards suffering, uh, except maybe the, the visionaries at Fatima who knew a lot more than we did, but, um. Really the, the [00:22:00] suffering that Christ underwent in his physical body and then the redemption that God brought out of that for the world is so profound. And the fact that we can join in on that and yet spend so much of our lives renting from, you know, the, the.
Samantha: Every kind of suffering imaginable from taking the Tylenol, which I do all the time, um, to running away from the self-sacrifice in parenthood and, you know, these issues that we're talking about. Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's hard to really grasp the, the full implications of that. Um, but it is so beautiful to think about Christ's incarnation as, um.
Samantha: As bringing so much meaning to our embodiment. That's beautiful.
Dr. Blake: And I would just, if I can jump in on the
Samantha: Yeah.
Dr. Blake: point of suffering here, is that one of the points I make in the book [00:23:00] is that, yes, Christianity does really provide a better way to live because God has made us for this. So of, of the things that stuck with me is it turns out it's actually churchgoing Christian. Couple married couples who report having more sex, being more satisfied with their sex lives. So, and of course we can run through all the many other ways in which living in accordance with God's design tends to work out better for
Samantha: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Blake: But one of the other beautiful things is that when things do go wrong and they will, this is a fallen world.
Dr. Blake: We are fallen people. Even when they go wrong, there is a meaning there, and that's what you're just speaking to. Because our sufferings are joined in a. Deeply spiritual way that I will not pretend to fully understand at all, but they are joint to those in of Christ. And in fact, love and I quote, CS Lewis has a great line to love is to be [00:24:00] vulnerable.
Dr. Blake: And we can see that vulnerability in the self-giving of marriage, in the self-giving of parenthood because you can be very badly hurt and as wonderful as marriage is in fact. It does contain within it the promise of suffering, not just in for better, for worse, for richer, for poor, and sickness and in health, but in that final part, tell death do us part. promise of marriage is that one of you is most likely going to be standing at the grave of the other mourning. So there is suffering involved in this, in this love, there is vulnerability involved as we extend ourselves. Beyond simply the individual person, and instead we care about those around us.
Dr. Blake: We can be wounded by them, we can be wounded and hurt by what happens to them.
Samantha: Right.
Dr. Blake: sufferings are redemptive. They can be sanctifying, and ultimately we see, as he said, God suffered the ultimate vulnerability for love's sake, was Christ incarnate for us, enduring the [00:25:00] cross for us, giving up the glory of heaven for us.
Dr. Blake: All of those sufferings, all of that divine vulnerability of love for us. And if that is what God has done for us, we can endure the sufferings that come our way in this life.
Samantha: Absolutely. Now, um, you talked a little bit about how this distorted anthropology disconnects body from meaning and purpose in the ways that that goes wrong. And um, and we've talked about Christ as emblematic of, of how it goes. Right? And, but are there other ways or examples that we could see the body as something with this inherent T loss or purpose that.
Samantha: In this culture that treats embodiment as a problem to be solved and not a gift to be received. You know, what does it look like when it, when it goes right, I guess.
Dr. Blake: Well, I would say that one [00:26:00] very obvious point, and I'm not. Well, maybe, I don't know. I'm not necessarily going to get too deep into Theology of the Body,
Samantha: Sure.
Dr. Blake: but there is that union of husband and wife, which is meant to be a self-giving union. Um, and it, the two become one and the words of scripture. And I think one of the most beautiful parts of that is the two literally becoming one.
Dr. Blake: As the gametes of husband and wife unite to create, to beget a new life, a new person, a new. Person who is destined to live forever, who can know God and enjoy him forever, throughout all eternity. That is something profound and beautiful. Our participation in the creation of new persons one of the most magnificent, glorious, mysterious parts of life, that is things going very right and at the same time. It is also important to recognize that because this is such a [00:27:00] grand and great such a remarkable responsibility that has been given to us, that has so much to do with why sexuality comes, with constraints and boundaries that need to be observed for our good and the good of those around us, starting with our children.
Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. You know, you said that it might be an obvious example, but I think more and more as we enter, um, and embody the biotech era and the reproductive technologies that are available to us, it's. It's going to become less and less apparent and obvious. I think it's already, um. Less apparent and obvious that a child has a right to be born of a union of love.
Samantha: I think people would look at us strangely if we were to just question them on the street, like Jay Leno style about, oh, do you think that a child has a right to be born? Uh, and out of a loving union? I would say no. It's not a, i, I think the notion of the child's rights in the matter [00:28:00] don't even enter people's minds.
Samantha: It's what did the parents desire? Um. That's the biggest goal. So I think going back to that, of this notion of embodiment and the coming together of a man and a woman and having a child, you know, being united in one flesh and the meaning of all of that, um, is I, I think it's not obvious. And the more and more we enter this unnatural world, the less and less.
Samantha: Natural law is apparent to us. Um, so I think that's a great point to make and underscore and, uh, you drove that home beautifully. Thank you.
Dr. Blake: Yeah, there is this horrifying quote you probably saw, um, from someone who is, uh, founder or a leader at a biotech company that does genetic screening
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: embryos, if I recall correctly. But is for fun. IVF is for babies and that. Completely inverts things, but you're right. That is how a lot of people increasingly think.
Dr. Blake: And we need to counter [00:29:00] that by pointing towards the truth that when we take that attitude and instrumentalize people to that degree, when we turn people into commod. There really are negative repercussions for our culture, for ourselves, and ultimately even for our relationship with those children because the very act of turning people into commodities defeats the purpose in so far as the purpose of other people, in particular, your own children is love, but there can't damage that love when you turn.
Dr. Blake: Treat them from their very beginning as a. Something to be bought and salt, something to be optimized, something to be ordered and discarded if they're not meeting quality control standards, which is of course the point of IVF and in particular, IVF mediated through genetic screening.
Samantha: Yeah, absolutely. Um, we unpack that quotation, really dive into that in our conversation with [00:30:00] Emma Water. So I hope podcast listeners will, uh, who are interested in unpacking the, the startups and the eugenics and the things that are going on in Silicon Valley, um, will go back to that episode with, uh, Emma Waters and, and take a listen.
Samantha: But yeah, absolutely. Now I wanna uh, ask you some argue that the culture is already too far gone, the war has been lost. Do you think there is still room to shift that trajectory? Um, and are there any signs of hope on the horizon?
Dr. Blake: Yes, I, I will start with the signs of hope.
Samantha: Okay,
Dr. Blake: first of all, I think we really are seeing progress on gender, ideology, and in particular questions of transition with regard to children. We've won an awful lot of fights on that lately. Now that it's not over yet and we have a lot more ground to take. But we have made strides that [00:31:00] seemed unthinkable just a few years ago when we had.
Dr. Blake: Republican governors vetoing restrictions on, uh, gender transition or on having men and women's sports and things like that. A lot of Republicans in red states didn't want to touch this, and now they can't, they can't get onto this issue fast enough. They recognize that it's a political winner,
Samantha: Right.
Dr. Blake: public opinion has really solidified with us on that. So that's one hopeful thing. Another hopeful thing. Is the Dobbs decision. took almost half a century, 49 years to end Ro versus Wade, and there is an enormous amount of work still to do, we did achieve that victory, a generational win. And we're seeing additional fruits. Uh, we just saw cuts to Planned Parenthood funding.
Samantha: Right.
Dr. Blake: litigated, but I think ultimately we're going to win and we're going to see Planned Parenthood's federal [00:32:00] funding disappear for at least a year. a huge win. That's a huge blow to the abortion industry. And we are also seeing signs that. Young people in particular are hungry for a better way of life. I'm not saying that the revival has already happened. Um, at the most we're seeing. The first sparks, the first little flickers. But I do think that is a recognition that the sexual revolution did not deliver. It has failed. It is leaving people lonely, and are porn addicted. Women are stuck dealing with men who are porn addicted. There's anxiety, there's depression. People are not coming together to form lasting, stable, fulfilling marriages. I think in that darkness, the light of the Christian message of what we are meant for in the vocations that most of us are called to of marriage and family really can stand out and really can draw people [00:33:00] to the truth.
Samantha: Hmm. Yeah, I, I think you're right. Um, you know, it's always good to remember and remind ourselves that no matter how the. Dark things seem in the present. Christ has already won. Um, so that's a, a good note. Um, good, good thing to circle back to when you say, uh, there's still a lot more work to be done with Dobbs.
Samantha: Could you elaborate on that? Because I think that there are lots of people who are hungry for what next?
Dr. Blake: Sure. So. A lot of, I mean, Dobbs simply said, there's no constitutional right to abortion. It threw the issue back to the states, and I don't think we're going to see a recognition of 14th amendment, uh, fetal personhood anytime soon. There's an argument to be made that perhaps we should have that, but I don't think the Supreme Court wants to touch that and. So we have a couple things we need to work on. One is in red [00:34:00] states ensuring that we limit the damage from referendum. We finally got a win. Uh, after losing quite a few of those, it seemed like we were never going to stop losing. But no, we did in Florida, standing out in particular in 2024. Then there's also the question of tackling abortion pills, right?
Dr. Blake: Abortion drugs being shipped across state lines is a threat to every state that has tried to protect human life in utero. So we need to encourage the Trump administration to up because they have the tools to tackle that if they want to. They have also the tools to address the fact that abortion drugs are far more dangerous. Then, has been admitted,
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: uh. Back in April released a study analyzing real world data on the use of abortion drugs. And it turns out they are [00:35:00] more dangerous than had been admitted. And they, it was something like one in 10 women who took these had a serious complication.
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: we really need to pressure the administration right now to deal with this problem and point out this is not. It is not healthy. Even if you are someone who supports abortion access, you should still be concerned at just how high the risk of complications is. But I think most, all, unfortunately, abortion proponents really care more about abortion access than they do about protecting the health of women.
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: are a few issues we really need to try to address.
Samantha: Yeah. Um, and we will, uh, link to that, um, document from the EPBC in the show notes, um, as well as to the book. Is there one thing that you hope stays with readers after they close the book? One thing that you hope they can't unsee.[00:36:00]
Dr. Blake: Well, I think it would be the beauty of the Christian. View of marriage and family. I joked earlier about being a professional prude, and that's what we get lobbed at us. We're the prudes, we're the skulls, we're the killjoys. And more recently, we're also accused of being bigots. no Christian sexual morality exists, not because we hate fun. instead because we have a fuller understanding of human beings and how we are meant to live and relate to each other, how we are meant to love each other, both romantically, sexually, but also in broader community and family with parents and children, all of this. So instead of viewing sex as something that is disconnected from all this, Christianity takes a holistic approach, recognizes that we are made for relationships, we're made for love. And provides answers as to how we are best to live even in this fallen world. Even in this world that will have suffering [00:37:00] how we are to live. In accordance with God's design for us, in ways that are better for us, better for those around us, and then also providing consolation and comfort when we do endure the inevitable sufferings of this life. Right? Marriage vows are beautiful. They are powerful things better, for worse, and sickness and in health for richer, for poor. These are promises and we assert our agency against. rest of the world if necessary in making these promises and trying to keep them and trying to live in accordance with them.
Dr. Blake: We don't human agency end up going with Hannah Rent here. the political theorist, but human agency is marked by the keeping of promises. It's not when you always keep your options open, you're always reacting to the world with whatever seems best in the moment. Know it's when you do the thing that you have said you will do. Marriage is one of the most profound ways of do accomplishing that in [00:38:00] this life. Marriage is one of the most powerful and profound ways of showing. I am a human, I am a person. I'm not simply reactive. I am instead asserting myself in the world. And in doing so, again, this is what most of us are called to.
Dr. Blake: It's romantic, it's beautiful, it's powerful, and it's far more fulfilling. Despite the risks, then always keeping oneself safe and free from all entanglements, all obligations, all dependencies.
Samantha: Yeah, I, I think you're right. The, uh, the bad examples of of Christianity not lived well, um, that we all perpetrate on a daily basis, uh, sometimes get pushed. As the example of Christianity. But when Christianity goes right and we live by gr, by God's grace according to, uh, the teachings of Jesus Christ, those are [00:39:00] some of the most beautiful examples of, um, things that move us of lives well lived in human history.
Samantha: And the example of the saints of people who have. Based, serious suffering, serious adversity. Um, and when love has triumphed over evil, I mean, those are the examples that, that move us. And so I think you're right that, that is beautiful. Now, we've, we've said quite a lot, um, on the negative side about the sexual revolution.
Samantha: Was there anything of value that we gained, you know, in the, in defense of the sexual revolution? We at least got this X, Y, or Z out of it, or is it negative across the board?
Dr. Blake: I think it's negative across the board. I think there have certainly been some positive social changes,
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: positive cultural changes in the decades since the sec. Revolution kicked off, but I don't think it was [00:40:00] I don't think it was intrinsic to any of them. And I would actually argue that the sexual revolution has done a great deal to hold us back.
Dr. Blake: For instance, would be the best anti-poverty program? The best educational program, the best anti-crime program. It would be rolling back the sexual revolution. It would specifically, it would be fathers who marry the mothers of their children, preferably before having the children and stay married to them. That would be a remarkable transformation of our nation. It would resolve so many problems. Think of just how much of our technological prowess, just how much of our unprecedented wealth has been spent dealing with the fallout of family breakdown. Think of how much better our society would be if instead of wasting all these resources on that, even if you only care about the bottom line, you should then still care about the family. And of course, we care about much more than the bottom line, but [00:41:00] it's such a waste. It's a waste economically, and we're still, it's a waste of people. It's a waste of persons who were meant for something better. Instead, don't have the love committed parents, married parents who beget them in love, who care for them in love, who raise them in love. Instead, they're left to fend for themselves. All of these horrible things, we don't need to get into all that, but would be so much better culturally if sex was where it was meant to be between a man and a woman who are committed to each other for life.
Samantha: Hmm. Um, I, I agree. But to push back a little bit, what would you say to the listener who's thinking, yes, totally shame that we have all of this collateral damage, but are you not throwing the baby out with the bath water like the. I would most [00:42:00] likely not be sitting here having this conversation with you as a married mother of four with two advanced degrees, most likely, um, if we were to roll back the sexual revolution and that the sexual revolution was necessary for women to have the increased opportunities that they undeniably do, or do you think No, we still could have gotten there without.
Samantha: All of the destruction and collateral damage along the way. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Blake: I absolutely think we could have gotten there without the destruction and the collateral damage. And in fact, I would say the sexual revolution again, it presumes. A certain equality between men and women that is based on interchangeability rather than an equality of dignity, that often turns out to be detrimental to women.
Dr. Blake: I talked again about how the reality is the burdens of human reproduction are distributed asymmetrically, and. A culture that insists that [00:43:00] men and women to be treated as interchangeable in the workplace, for instance, will not respect that. So one of the things we did at EPPC, I did this with, uh, Alexander De Sanctus last year, was to look at how the Fortune 100, uh, treats issues of family leave of, uh, providing funding for abortion, and in particular abortion tourism, if they're, dealing with employees in states where there are restrictions on the procedure and such. And that just sort of highlighted the extent to which there is an emphasis on children are the problem, women's fecundity is the problem. And I think there are ways that we can address that in, I mean, work from home being an obvious example how that can flexible work hours and ultimately a return to the idea of the household. As a productive economic unit. So there are ways to talk about that to address that. But no, we didn't need promiscuity in [00:44:00] order for women to have careers in educations in a way that was often denied to them in the past, or that was restricted or at least discouraged. I don't think that we needed have hookup culture for women to get master's degrees.
Samantha: Hmm. Yeah, I, I, to circle back to the question we talked about earlier when we were talking about who have been the greatest victims of the sexual revolution, I think a lot of times people who are. Uh, either for the sexual revolution or even ambivalent about the sexual revolution, say, well, at least, at least we got X, Y, and Z for women.
Samantha: But as we talked about earlier, and you made several great points about how women are amongst the most harmed parties. As collateral damage of the sexual revolution. They are the victims. Not, um, some, not the party who has gained quite a lot. And I, I agree with you. There are lots of better ways [00:45:00] to. Affirm women's, uh, position in society to creatively think through ways that they can continue to con, contribute and balance or, um, you know, not to have everything all at once, but to take time off and things like that, to honor the embodied limits that are unique and intrinsic to their role as bearers of life.
Samantha: So, yeah, I agree with you. Um, if there are listeners who want to do more than just limit, what practical steps can we take to help those who have been harmed, who are the victims of the revolution, and reimagine what it means to be human as a life-giving way forward.
Dr. Blake: Well, I think there are an enormous number of opportunities. I'm certainly not gonna be able to list 'em all now. I would say prayer. It's always a great place to start. Um, prayer is powerful in terms of what we can then do [00:46:00] our own efforts. Other than asking God, I would say that the church really has an opportunity to be a beacon in a world that's growing dark, specifically relationally. Um, so many people are just unaware of even a good, loving marriage looks like, I think, and consequently, I think churches can provide that. I also think churches can provide examples of how to live intergenerationally, not necessarily in the same household, but. mingling of the young and the old and the in-between, which increasingly alludes us in our society. Churches can provide places of accountability. There was just a big blowup over basically an app for raid men, and the idea was, well, we're going to warn. Women can warn each other about bad men. Well, you had a community, if you had churches in which people were still meeting, rather than it all being online. [00:47:00] You wouldn't need that. both the RI with all of its risks and then it blew up because someone figured out how to share all the data from that app. And so a lot of women had their privacy violated there and it was just a mess. But really, if you could just have. Accountability. If you could have people you trust who are able to say, yeah, that's a good guy, or No, that's not a good guy, and they know because he's been in church with them for years.
Dr. Blake: That would be a wonderful thing. That's something that's missing in our culture, but
Samantha: Yeah,
Dr. Blake: provided.
Samantha: yeah. Rev Revolutionary. Ask somebody who knows the person that you trust. But yeah, you're right. It's, uh, it's definitely missing from our culture. It's a lot easier to even, uh, even if you need help at the grocery store, it's easier to look up the aisle on the app than ask the person who works there.
Samantha: I think people wanna hide behind the screens. That kind of enables us [00:48:00] to hide from our own vulnerability and human interaction, whether it be, you know, getting a can of soup or finding a, a dating partner who's suitable and appropriate. So one final question that I ask all of our guests. Who is one person, dead or alive, real or fictional, who you believe exemplifies the very best of being human?
Dr. Blake: All right. Well, I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to just say Jesus
Samantha: I did have one. Just say Jesus and stick to his guns. But we can, we can have a Jesus and 'cause that's, that's who like a default Christian Ann.
Dr. Blake: That, that, that would be cheating. Um, okay. Well, that there's a lot of really great examples. Um,
Samantha: Thank God.
Dr. Blake: yes, thankfully, um, I struggling to [00:49:00] pick one. I'm gonna go with, uh. Saint Augustine
Samantha: Hmm.
Dr. Blake: simply because I feel that his life combines so many important aspects, of being raised, um, a culture with where he was not a Christian, uh, his sinfulness, and yet then his. Conversion, uh, in which his mother, of course, was incredibly important. And then just the power of his intellect, which was always there, of course, that God-given ability was always there, but then turned too refined, sharpened improved by the knowledge of God, by the true knowledge of God, by relationship with God. And I think that's just something that is beautiful where it shows how. Natural reason, natural ability can then be taken to another level in service of God, in relationship with God in service to the church, for the [00:50:00] church, for um, believers. I don't know if that's, well, I don't, I think
Samantha: Yeah.
Dr. Blake: designed, so there's no right answer, but I'm gonna go with that one.
Samantha: Yeah, no, that's a beautiful answer. I think, too, um, it helps us to think about not just, he's a great example for that natural reason being transformed and transcendent through, uh, the invitation of God's grace, but really all of our uniquely human capacities, right? I mean, the ability to love and, and offer of ourselves, self-sacrifice for others.
Samantha: All of that is. Strengthened and, and made more powerful by the invitation of God's grace in our lives. So that's beautiful. Thank you. Um, the last thing I wanted to ask, so I said that was the last question, but obviously listeners are going to want to know where they can connect with you, find your work, and by the book.
Dr. Blake: All right. So, uh, they can find me@eppc.org. That's the Ethics and Public Policy Center. [00:51:00] They can find work by many great scholars, um, as well. I'm just happy to be along for the ride there, but they can find my page there that generally has. just about everything I do, they can find the book on Amazon or they can go to ignatius press's website ignatius.com and get it directly from the publisher there.
Samantha: Great. Excellent. I'll put all of those links in the show notes below for listeners to access those things. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. Can't wait to dive deeper into this and really unpack all of these important, um, necessary things. In the book more deeply. Thank you.
Dr. Blake: All right. Well thank you so much for having me. This has been great If this episode raised questions or sparked thoughts you'd like to explore further, I'd love to continue the conversation with you over on Substack at Brave new us.substack.com. [00:52:00] Your comments and insights there helped to build the kind of thoughtful community the show was made for to support brave us.
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