When does medicine cross the line from healing to harm?
In this episode of Brave New Us, bioethicist and nurse researcher Kallie Fell, Executive Director of the Center for Bioethics and Culture (CBC), joins Samantha Stephenson to expose critical ethical questions around reproductive technologies, gender medicine, and medical consent.
We dig into:
The hidden risks and ethical concerns of IVF, egg donation, and commercial surrogacy
How “informed consent” often fails in fertility treatments and gender-affirming care
The rapid rise of pediatric gender clinics and controversies surrounding transgender medical interventions for minors
What the CBC is uncovering about the commodification of human bodies in reproductive and gender medicine
How profit motives influence both the fertility industry and gender-affirming healthcare
Why women and vulnerable populations often bear the brunt of unregulated medical innovation
This episode offers a clear-eyed look at the intersection of bioethics, reproductive technology, gender medicine, and medical ethics, asking what it truly means to protect human dignity in an age of rapid biomedical change.
Mentioned in the Episode
Center for Bioethics and Culture
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TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Welcome to Brave New Us, where we explore what it means to be human in the age of biotechnology. Today I'm here with Kallie Fell Perinatal Nurse and the executive director of the Center for Bioethics and Culture. In this episode, we will trace the origins of the CBC and its. Mission to tell the human stories behind today's most controversial bio technologies.
We'll talk about the groundbreaking documentaries that first brought surrogacy egg donation and gender medicine into the public conversation, and how Kallie's latest work. The Detransition Diaries, continues that legacy. What happens when the promise of medical liberation becomes a source of deep regret?
And what does real healthcare look like in a culture chasing technological control? Callie, welcome to Brave New Us. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's really awesome to just be sitting here and chatting with you. Um, thank [00:01:00] you so much for letting me talk about the Center for Bioethics and Culture and what we're doing.
I'm excited for today. Yeah. So let's start at the beginning. What is the Center for Bioethics and Culture and how did you first get involved in its mission? Yeah, so short answer, the Center for Bioethics and Culture is a nonprofit, educational nonprofit committed to addressing ethical issues, um, emerging at the intersection of medicine, science, and culture.
I actually first encountered the CBC while working, um, as a perinatal nurse. So my background is in science. I have a master's degree in reproductive physiology and um, also a degree in perinatal nursing. So I've been a bedside nurse in, um. Kind of labor and delivery antepartum postpartum for the last 10 years.
But along the way, in my undergraduate studies and then in my master's work, and then even in a lab studying women's health, I started to question [00:02:00] some of these technologies that I knew that we were using. A lot, and with rapid speed, they became, they were becoming mainstream very quickly. And so these reproductive technologies like IVF, surrogacy, third party reproduction, and when I brought those questions up to people, my mentors to others, I was having a really hard time getting.
Sufficient answers. And so actually I think through really providential, you know, providentially, I actually encountered the Center for Bioethics and Culture. I was at a conference and was actually questioning my attendance and kind of like, why am I here? And I was thumbing through the, the like the speakers pamphlet, right?
That you get at a conference? Yeah. Kinda looking out who I wanted to listen to, what, what topics I'd be interested in. And then I opened the book up and there is the Center for Bioethics and Cultures Founders Photo Jennifer Law. And right [00:03:00] there she is talking about, or her workshop is going to be talking about the things that I've been.
Questioning for some time. And um, and I was drawn in to the bold, unapologetic way that she kind of asked questions about some of these technologies and was willing to ask tough questions and find answers. And so I was hooked. I watched all the films that they had that the center had center for. I'd watched all the films that the Center for Bioethics and Culture had come out with.
I was eager to be on board. I started volunteering in 2017 when we released the film Big Fertility, which follows a woman's story being a three time surrogate mother. And then I eventually joined full-time stepping in to film production myself. And I think we'll get there about the films that I've been working on and, um, you know.
Ever since. So I started, like said, started volunteering and then became our kind of [00:04:00] research assistant, a writer helping with the films. And then now I'm the executive director of the organization. Excellent. Yeah. I do wanna get to, um, the films that are definitely near and dear to my heart because. They were some of the research that I stumbled upon when I was getting my master's degree and definitely shaped the trajectory of my research, research interests from that point forward.
So I do wanna get to those, but first, was there like a specific moment or case that sticks out to you that made you realize the cultural cost of these technologies? Or was it more of like a slow building? For me, I think it was a slow building kind of, and I think that's the way it's though in our culture sometimes is like we just are kind of hum drumming along in our certain spheres or our spaces and we're not thinking about, you know, I have so many people.
My mom included, who come up to me after they found our work, specifically in the space of third party reproduction, and they're like, you know, I haven't really thought of that. Actually. I was just on the phone with a good [00:05:00] friend a few nights ago and we were talking, we haven't caught up in many years, and he was like, you know, I have never even thought about surrogacy or why that would be a problem.
Yeah. Um, because we view, you know, as we should, children and families, as great things as good things, and so. For me, it was kind of the same way, like it's this kind of continued acceptance of the next thing and all the while, for me anyway, there was just kind of this baseline concern and questioning, and then of course I feel like this really.
Uh, blew open even more when gender identity or gender medicine kind of entered the chat room, so to speak. Like I think we saw in real time finally people were like, wait a second, uh, medicine has gone astray and we need to talk about that, and like, this isn't okay. And so I think for different people's, different things.
For me it was definitely more of this like. Current of being uncomfortable with some technologies and being [00:06:00] uncomfortable with the way that medicine was developing and being practiced.
Samantha: Your documentaries have covered reproductive technologies extensively, but also stem cell research assisted suicide, and most recently the taboo topic of gender transition surgeries. How do you choose which issues to highlight and what do you think it is about telling these stories that makes it such a powerful tool in the realm of bioethics?
Kallie: Yeah, so we chose, we choose the topics really. I think sometimes the topics choose us, but we kind of, again, educational, nonprofit, focus on bioethics, specifically that impact the most vulnerable among us. So women and children tend to be in that category. And we have, if you go to our website, you'll see kind of like three categories, which things fall in making life, faking life and taking life.
Kallie: And so if it kind of falls in that realm, , we'll probably cover it. , And also [00:07:00] another thing is anyone else talking about this issue, , we're not afraid to tackle issues that maybe people aren't really thinking about yet. , And so, and. if someone, if there are a lot of organizations already tackling a certain issue, that's great.
Kallie (2): , But sometimes things kind of h us down and find us and we're like, okay, like for example, the,, gender identity
Samantha (2): Mm-hmm.
Kallie (2): medicine we actually didn't really want to go into that space or enter in that conversation.
Kallie (2): There came a point where we couldn't say no anymore.
Kallie (2): A lot of the work for the Center for Bioethics and Culture has focused on third party reproduction, , cloning, stem cells, , IVF, surrogacy and beyond. , But when we found out that children before being put on puberty blockers or being offered, , cross-sex hormones or being offered fertility preservation, that's kind of when we were like, okay, they've entered our lane [00:08:00] when men were talking about getting uterine transplant so they could feel more feminine. , When men are trying to breastfeed, , then it's like, okay, they've entered our lane. It's now time for us to have a voice and to enter the conversation. And so we did. , And, and why storytelling? Oh, man. Storytelling really humanizes kind of these abstract ethical concerns. Again, people think, you know, I, people think. Why do I care about surrogacy? I may never hire a surrogate mother. I was eating dinner one night at a restaurant, at a bar, 'cause I was by myself and a, a gentleman beside me was chatting with me and he had a degree in biology, but had no idea what bioethics was. , And so I think storytelling kind of makes these issues approachable. , And we believe at the Center for Bioethics and Culture that narratives will illuminate, , what is often obscured by policy language or maybe scientific jargon that people don't understand. [00:09:00] And so we'll choose an issue that is maybe under reported, maybe under, there's not a lot of focus on it, like the fertility industry and the harms of it. , And where human dignity is at risk. And so, . Combine those issues with some emotional resonance of someone's real lived experience. And that will help shape public conscience, that will help people think, ah, this is why I should care. , And so really storytelling is how you reach the heart. It's how you make it personal. , And when you have a topic like bioethics that is very abstract, , it's like the perfect combination to help educate, which is our goal at the end of the day.
Samantha (2): Yeah, absolutely. Do you, do you ever struggle when you're making them to balance the, , emotive aspects of the storytelling with that intellectual, ethical rigor?
Kallie (2): Yes, that is a tension that we have and you have to think about that when you are doing filmmaking. As a storyteller and someone and an organization that cares very much about [00:10:00] truth and academics. We root our films in firsthand accounts, but also in sound, medical and ethical research. We have done our own research, , at the Center for Bioethics and Culture. We've done a study on surrogate mothers. , So we take science and academia very seriously. And so we have to, , support testimonies and the stories that are shared with data. , But we're gonna lead with the story again, because that's a personal hook. People think, why does this matter to me? , So. Hearing from parents, hearing from young women who medical transition only to regret it later. Hearing from parents who have children who are caught up in this, having hearing from surrogate mothers that are left harm egg donors who are left harmed, , hearing from them and sharing their bodies, their pain, their healing, , that that is, gonna allow [00:11:00] people to then dig a little deeper and be open to hearing about the science and, and the data, you know.
Samantha (2): Mm. Yeah, absolutely. So let's get in, , a little bit deeper to the Detransition Diaries. , What compelled you to tell these pretty untold stories, and what were some of the challenges or surprises that you encountered in the process?
Kallie (2): Yes. So the Detransition Diaries is actually our second film in the tri in a trilogy. We have three films actually on the topic of, , gender medicine or gender ideology. And I use all of these quotes, , just because the can get tricky, right? I don't believe that you can medically transition.
Kallie (2): You are born a male, you'll stay a male, you're born a female, you can stay a female. So I just wanna make that very clear. But, , like I said, when much of our previous work, , been focused on third party reproduction or, , in this space of reproductive technologies, . And [00:12:00] so we found out again that women were being, , offered fertility preservation as young as 8, 9, 10 years old before going on puberty blockers, , or cross-sex hormones.
Kallie (2): And we know that fertility preservation, , one is not, , as successful as its promise. And then two, what kind of. What children really know, what kind of family that they wanna have at 8, 9, 10, right? And so then we were asking children, really young children to think about, , things that they shouldn't be thinking about on top of the fact that they're harming their bodies or making their perfectly healthy bodies, , unhealthy by taking medications that weren't for them or having irreversible surgeries.
Kallie (2): And so we actually set out to make the first film, it was in the height of the COVID Pandemic, and that was called Transmission. What's the rush to reassign gender? And in that film, we took a pretty broad look at why as a culture, all of a sudden we were seeing this huge [00:13:00] rush to medically transition, especially children. , And in it we talked to parents experts, academics, , evolutionary biologists. , Someone who was canceled for saying men aren't women on at the time, Twitter. , We talked with a couple of detransition. I mean, it was a pretty broad, , group of people, but right away when we were filming that it was the voice of detransition that we were most enthralled with maybe is the word, or we wanted to hear from them when we kind of realized had this like aha moment, that these are the folks that we need to be hearing from. These are people who thought that they would find answers by medically transitioning, by taking medication, by chopping off their breasts, et cetera, and then deciding that actually no, this didn't solve any problems.
Kallie (2): This just made things worse. And so they started [00:14:00] to, what we'd say detransition or stop medical treatment to. Stop the hormones, et cetera, et cetera. And at the time, if we like look back, there was really very few detransition that were willing to speak out. There was a real deficit and those stories being told publicly, in fact, most of those men and women were being, , villainized.
Kallie (2): They were by their doctors. They were canceled on social media. It was really hard to be a detransition. , And so we wanted to start focusing in on them, on their story. And so, . And now thankfully, the numbers of Detransition is growing. And I don't mean thankfully that it's growing because that's awful that, you know, they were lied to in, in the first bit and thought that this would solve their problems. But thankfully, it's growing in the sense of like they are allowed to have a voice now. They're no longer being as vilified. There are groups of them everywhere. They're testifying on the capitol, they're testifying in [00:15:00] their respective states. And so they are exposing their truth now on social media. And I think that that's great.
Kallie (2): But like I said, at the time, those voices were not being elevated.
Samantha (2): Hmm.
Kallie (2): so. focused on the women first. So Detransition Diaries is the next film, and in it we focus on the story of three women who, , decided to medically transition, take medication hormones and, , have irreversible surgery, and then decided against it.
Kallie (2): And we focused on that because at the time what we were seeing was that, , young women were more likely to, to to be transitioned, medically transitioned. It was young women. It was kind of this interesting phenomenon that we were seeing. And so that's why we focused
Samantha (2): Yeah.
Kallie (2): women. And honestly, we thought we would be done.
Kallie (2): We thought, okay, these two films, then we're done. But then we heard from parents and they're like, wait a second. You forgot about the boys. You forgot about the men. We have young men who have have bought this lie who are struggling with this, and we want you to tell their story. And so then we came out with the [00:16:00] last film, the Lost Boy Searching for Manhood. And in that film we look at, . I think five men who all around the globe actually we got to travel to England. , And we had a young man from Norway. So that one was a really like a global look at what it's like to be a male detransition. , And so that's a very long-winded answer to say why, why these films?
Samantha (2): Yeah.
Kallie (2): and they came really fast. We were very busy for, for a few years there.
Samantha (2): Yeah. , That, and it's a book too, right? That, that's sitting behind you on the shelf over there.
Kallie (2): yes. So, yeah. So actually while we were wrapping up filming, , getting, , detransition Diaries on YouTube, , we were actually, , pursued by Ignatius Press. They said, Hey, would you wanna turn this into a book? We're like, absolutely, because, . Books are like the way that you can expand on film, right?
Kallie (2): , And so we, we agreed to do that and then, , they actually found out that we were in the process [00:17:00] of making the third film, and they were like, okay, wait a second. Let's include their voices too. And so the book encompasses both males and females and also include stories of detransition that weren't featured in our films.
Kallie (2): And it also goes and gives a background on like, how we got here, why, you know, where did this come from, and the medical harms of, , medically transitioning. , So it's a little bit, but it's also a very easy read. I, I read the book from start to finish from California to New York on an airplane. So I can tell people that you can read it in five hours or less if you're just sitting there digesting it over a short time.
Kallie (2): But, , but yeah, it's a pretty comprehensive, yet very digestible book.
Samantha (2): Yeah. So it sounds like each, each project is its own discreet piece and then to put together a very comprehensive exploration of this strange sudden phenomenon that we have, , been witnessing in our culture.
Kallie (2): Yes, and hopefully we're seeing, I mean, the tides [00:18:00] change
Samantha (2): Yeah.
Kallie (2): I think we're in a place now where we're starting to realize the madness of
Samantha (2): Mm-hmm.
Kallie (2): of the idea that children can think that they're born in the wrong body, and the idea that they have to change their bodies, their healthy bodies in a way that will have harmful implications.
Samantha (2): Yeah. Yeah. , Did you encounter any institutional pushback or censorship when you were releasing these films or the book?
Kallie (2): You know, we were so ready to be canceled. I'm gonna be real. We had backups because all of our films, , are free on YouTube. We put them up for people. , That was a change we made, I think right before actually, or right around the time we did Transmission Once Rush for assigned gender. And the, the gal who funded transmission, what's the rush?
Kallie (2): She wanted it to be available for free and for the
Samantha (2): Hmm.
Kallie (2): And so that was why she was like, I will fund this film. I think it's an important film. , And so we kind of made this shift there to just put all of our films up for people. , [00:19:00] And so people can go to our YouTube channel and find them. And we were so ready to be canceled.
Kallie (2): We had backups of everything. We were, we were ready for it. And interestingly, we have received overwhelmingly. Positive, constructive comments on YouTube emails. Thank you so much. I have partnerships with parents now who email me who are doing other things that want my opinion or voice or, but it's been such an amazing experience to kind of walk through this really scary time of feeling like you might be canceled, , to come out on the other side and to actually have a really great project that people actually received very well. So was very shocked and I'm very happy that we
Samantha (2): Yeah. Well that, that's so encouraging. 'cause it, it takes a lot of courage to be in that position and to be the person who's, or the organization who's willing to speak up and say the truth. And [00:20:00] that, I mean, that's why I think we see the tides changing, not just that people are waking up to sanity, but that organizations like the c BBC give people permission to say the true thing that is maybe the unpopular thing at the time.
Samantha (2): And then it takes away, like your courage takes away the fear that maybe other people feel and they can say, oh, I'm not alone in this. And then it is really meeting that need of those families that are coming to you saying, thank you for this. So thank you.
Kallie (2): Yeah. Yeah. No, and I think, you know, it's those few detransition in the very beginning, those few people that really took the fall for everyone. You know, they're the ones who we really ought to thank people, you know, like Colin Wright and , Megan Murphy and others who really did, you know, get like the full like, you know, of, of this thing.
Kallie (2): So, but anyway. Yeah, and you know, that's the thing about our organization and I have. , [00:21:00] Friends who think and believe very differently than me on a lot of the topics that I, , work on or explore through my job and role as the executive director. But I think what, what I hope to bring to the table is, again, education. Allow yourself to ask the questions. You might not come to the same answer, but we should be asking the questions and then also encourage public discourse. , Because we've gone, and I think this cancel culture that we had was a perfect example that we were just not allowing any type of discourse to happen.
Kallie (2): And I, I wanna bring that back and I think it's okay to have, , friends and relationships and, . Colleagues who view things differently than you. We might not agree on every single issue, but where can we align? Are we all asking the questions? Can we sharpen each other by asking hard questions? , And so that's my goal partly too.
Samantha (2): Yeah. How do you navigate those relationships? 'cause I think. It used to be very common for people to be friends with, people who believed [00:22:00] very differently than them about a, a wide variety of issues. And for whatever reason, the cultural tide has shifted to where people are actually breaking off relationships if people don't have the right viewpoint on whatever their hot button issue is.
Samantha (2): How does that work and play out in your life? , Being the face of quite some quite controversial topics.
Kallie (2): yeah. It can be very challenging. I was on a podcast recently, , and, . We did not see eye to eye on a couple of issues. , But we definitely did on others. And I think, you know, it can be really challenging, but I think just even having that conversation for public to see,
Samantha (2): Mm-hmm.
Kallie (2): to model that, oh wait, you can disagree and move on. , And sometimes you just have to let people disagree and move on and find the things that you can agree on and find the things that you can work well [00:23:00] together on. , And so I think it looks different for everyone, I think.
Samantha (2): Well maybe it's like, it's like anything, you know, like I this is a bad example for me personally 'cause I can't actually ride a bike. But you, when you, you fall down enough times, like eventually you figure out how to keep going. , I hear and I think also watching my kids learn how to ride bikes.
Samantha (2): 'cause they know how my husband made sure they weren't gonna end up like me. When they fall down, like they get back up and they keep going, but then they realize also that after they fall a few times, it doesn't hurt that bad. You know, you're gonna survive. And so it kind of builds up your tough skin to
Kallie (2): yeah.
Samantha (2): go through those rocky periods.
Kallie (2): There have been many times they've put my foot in my mouth and it's like, well, I can learn from that.
Samantha (2): right. Yeah. I guess not just not being so afraid of, of that learning process and having like patience with yourself, with your friends. Not everybody's gonna do everything perfectly the first time. And being able to offer mercy and [00:24:00] forgiveness when to yourself, when you don't, when you put your foot in your mouth or to your friend who put
Kallie (2): Yeah.
Samantha (2): his or her foot in her mouth.
Kallie (2): And I think it's, IM important too that we, you know, as we're talking about this kind of, we kind of surround ourselves with mentors who can really support us. People have gone before too, you know, I, like I said, I have a background in science. I have a background in nursing, and here I am running a nonprofit organization as well.
Kallie (2): And so I couldn't do these things without surrounding myself also or with the support of people behind me, people who are older, wiser people who have looked at things. From different directions. People have changed their minds on topics, right? Like, because that's, that's the other beauty of thing is, is you don't, you have this flexibility in life to change your mind, to have one opinion and then decide, wait a second, maybe that was the wrong opinion, to have under much more scrutiny.
Kallie (2): This is now my updated and revised opinion. I don't know. But I think, you know, I think it's easier to have hard conversations when you have [00:25:00] people supporting you and the encouragement of the people around you as well.
Samantha (2): It takes a lot of courage also, and humility to be able to change your mind and be willing to reexamine something that you have a set position on, you know, whatever it is. And to be willing to look at it again and think, oh, maybe you know what? Actually in light of this new information, I believe differently now that takes a lot of humility.
Samantha (2): So looking at these technologies, whether it's surrogacy, egg donation, gender transition, they echo these promises of liberation and freedom and empowerment, but your work reveals regret, harm, disillusionment. How do we discern when medical innovation has gone too far and, and how do we respond once we realize that?
Kallie (2): Yeah. And again, that can be tricky to discern because it's kind of a slow and steady [00:26:00] deterioration at
Samantha (2): Mm-hmm.
Kallie (2): So it can be hard and you're kinda like, wait a second, how did we end up here? But really, you have to return to the first principles of medicine, and that's kind of what I do, right? Like, so do no harm.
Kallie (2): What does that mean? So does this technology, does this innovation, does it harm? Does it treat human beings, whether that's women's bodies or children, as commodities?
Samantha (2): Right.
Kallie (2): there a financial gain from a person, a human? And so some of these technologies, they have very slick marketing. They are marketing as empowering, like egg freezing,
Samantha (2): Mm-hmm.
Kallie (2): for women like surrogacy even gender surgeries.
Kallie (2): Empowering, right? The marketing is really, really slick, but it leaves individuals and I don't honestly care how many individuals, it leaves enough of them,
Samantha (2): Hmm.
Kallie (2): with trauma, complications [00:27:00] and regret. And in the case we are kind of talking a lot about transgender ME medicine. I you are, in its essence, you are taking a healthy, especially in the case of children, a healthy normally developing child and you are creating a patient for life that is no
Samantha (2): Mm-hmm.
Kallie (2): that is no longer normally developing, and that there's something very wrong with that, in my opinion. Very harmful. And so, and at the end of the day, you know, just because we can, just because medicine allows it, just because technology has advanced does not mean that we should. And I think that's the harder thing people have to grapple with. I've spoken with women who have. Chosen to go the route of IVF or surrogacy and only after, and only in when they're in the thick of it, do they realize like, oh wow, I should have thought about that more.
Kallie (2): And I think it's really hard because again, our culture supports it. The marketing is slick and the desire is really real and there. And so I think, [00:28:00] I think it's easier to discern when medicine has gone astray than it is to stand up and to do the opposite or to not buy into that innovation, if that makes sense.
Samantha (2): Yeah. Yeah. It's easier to see than to point it out.
Kallie (2): Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Samantha (2): Yeah. And even so people, for people who do point it out and say, well, if you use this technology, you know. Down the line as this technology is implemented more, whatever that technology is, this and this, and this might happen. And people will say, oh yeah, well that's just like a worst case scenario that you are straw manning it.
Samantha (2): We shouldn't judge a technology based on the fears of the worst ways that it might be used. But you in your work, you encounter these horror stories daily. And I'm thinking right now of the story that just broke before we were recording this episode in California where they found, was it like over 20 [00:29:00] infants that were bought
Kallie (2): 20 children. I believe the number now is 17. We're under the age of three.
Samantha (2): 17 under the age of three. So there's a lot of questions around what were they procuring those children for. Do you have any insight on that?
Kallie (2): Yeah, so actually I just read an article before coming on here that the intended father is actually really a pretty high ra or allegedly a pretty high ranking government official in China, or has some strong ties to government in, in China, which I think is pretty remarkable. And I haven't gotten to read the article fully, but it just kind of came across my desk as I was entering this interview.
Kallie (2): And so I go, I wanna go back and read it. But that just broke. And so I think, you know. There are, as I've told other reporters, and I think I've been quoted on this, there are no laws about how many children you can have or how you can create those children as far as if, if they wanted to really, they told the intended [00:30:00] parents, or I'm sorry, they told the surrogate mothers that their intention was just to have a large family, that they just wanted a big family. I call bull. But if that's true, there's nothing against that. These children were abused and or allegedly abused. I think we have to say that since it's not since they're still waiting on their court date. And so, you know, I don't believe it. I think a lot of people don't believe it.
Kallie (2): I think that's why this case has gotten national attention because people realize, they've seen, okay, wow, this is, this doesn't look good. . I'm really grateful that this story has received the national attention, actually even global attention. I think it was in a couple of, of articles overseas. But the global attention on this, I think that it's been a little bit of a wake up call for people on how unregulated the fertility industry is and how dangerous this can be.
Kallie (2): I mean, these are, we're talking 20 children whose lives are completely. [00:31:00] forever. So we have in this example, right, we have the da, the intended father who is, from what we understand, the sperm donor, we have the intended mother, whom, from what I understand, was not the egg donor. So they used various egg donors across the nation, and they use various surrogate mothers across the nation.
Kallie (2): And I think that there are still surrogate mothers who are pregnant and expecting soon with with, for this intended couple. So I expect that number to go up.
Samantha (2): Hmm.
Kallie (2): But we have children who have been ripped from their biological origins, from the only home that they've ever known, the, the womb that they grew in for nine months.
Kallie (2): And now we have children who are in foster care and and awaiting to know like what's gonna happen to them for the rest of their lives. I mean, that's the danger of an industry that if we allow it to. Take over without questions asked, without regulation, without where we've allowed really, quite frankly, money and [00:32:00] profit to pri be a priority over the welfare of women and children.
Samantha (2): Yeah. And I just think to think about the, the possibilities for those children. What could they have been? What, what were they being gathered for? Nothing good comes to mind, it's a sad situation where foster care, which is, you know, I think people imperfect people just doing their best to try to meet a need.
Samantha (2): But it's not, it's not the best place for kids.
Samantha (2): What kind of a situation or world are we creating where we're like, oh, thank goodness they're in foster care because it's better than any of these other x, y, z possibilities that we could imagine for these children.
Kallie (2): Right.
Kallie (2): Created to become orphans from their genetics, from their mother. And then, then they quite literally became orphans again, which it is the worst case scenario. My heart breaks for these children, and this isn't, you know, this is the FBI are involved because again, the parents, the intended parents have [00:33:00] strong ties to China.
Kallie (2): So when I talked to Kayla, the surrogate mother, she voiced the concern, you know, with ties with traveling back and forth to China, who's to say that they don't take one or two children with them and then not return with them once a child leaves? We have no indication of what would happen to it, where it's going. And there have been some pretty, you know, scary headlines. You know, the Egg Factory Farms in, was it Thailand? The newest case where we know that a little boy through Surga U is living with a, a sexual predator, a a, a convicted sexual predator. And he had a loophole because surrogacy, we don't do background checks on
Samantha (2): Mm.
Kallie (2): And so it's really concerning what, what was to be, what, why did this family need or want 20 some children? Why did they have so many surrogate mothers so many pregnant at the same time? It's, it's very [00:34:00] alarming. And this isn't the only time the FBI has been involved, or cases that we've known about where the FBI has been involved in surrogacy cases.
Kallie (2): And so, like I said, I'm glad it's getting the attention it deserves. And hopefully Trump and our administration take a really hard look at. Surrogacy laws and maybe have some sort of federal stance. Maybe we close our borders for good people who aren't US citizens, maybe not come to the United States to hire surrogate women.
Samantha (2): Right.
Kallie (2): you know, I'm, I'm hoping that maybe there'll be a good outcome from this maybe.
Samantha (2): We could go on e even the best case scenario where these people maybe did wanna have a, a large family and they just wanted to have 20 children. All very small I mean. People say to me all the time with four kids the oldest is, my oldest is nine, and they're like, wow, you have your hands full.
Samantha (2): And I do. And so it's just I don't know. It's, it's hard to [00:35:00] imagine being able to steward that many chil, like just, even, even with the sort of laws we have for how many ratios for like daycare, you know, it's, it's a lot. The zoo won't let me bring all of my children at the same time to its programs here in where I live in Idaho, the zoo has a rule that you have to have three to three children to one.
Samantha (2): So I can't go to, I can go to the zoo, I just can't go to their special programs with all my kids. I have to bring another chaperone for my four. So they, that family would never be able to, they would never be able to survive at the zoo.
Kallie (2): Yeah. Well, and like to the point too, if they really wanted that, why lie? They were very misleading to all of the surrogate mothers about, you know, you know, you're the only surrogate mother. They weren't hiring, you know, so they lied. So again, whole thing just smells. We could, like you said, we could go on and on.
Samantha (2): Yeah. Because let's shift [00:36:00] gears a little bit. In our culture, which is undoubtedly obsessed with choice and control what is healthcare real care look like? Especially when we're talking about vulnerable populations like children, women in financial need, and those struggling with gender identity.
Samantha (2): What does care healthcare mean?
Kallie (2): Yeah. Well I think healthcare has always been about improving health, right? Which includes physical and mental health and wellbeing. And so in essence doesn't harm the way that these kind of technology, specifically in my head, I'm thinking of gender medicine.
Samantha (2): Yeah.
Kallie (2): it's real healthcare, good healthcare considers the wellbeing of the entire person.
Kallie (2): And that extends beyond a system a thought. You know, it's their whole being and the [00:37:00] community and the environment around them. And so I think we've gone, we've gotten so far removed from really good healthcare. I think it's really hard to find I think that some might say even too that. Good Healthcare is a, a relationship too.
Kallie (2): Not just healing, but a relationship between someone who knows a great deal more about medicine and health and someone who doesn't. It's a relationship between a provider and a patient. I could go on and on, but I think that's just like the, at the, at the bare minimum, that that is what healthcare is.
Samantha (2): Yeah, I, I definitely can think of, I've seen a lot of doctors in my life, and I can think of a few of them who would meet that criteria of there's this relationship with someone of knowledge who's providing this help towards the goal of healing. But for the most part, it usually feels like whiplash of in and out and checking boxes, and [00:38:00] not to condemn the doctors who are doing that.
Samantha (2): I understand they have a lot of concerns. They have, they're very busy. They have a lot of things that we don't see as patients, that they're checking boxes and just trying to keep up with the schedule of, and demands and, and do the best that they can, but. Very far from a healing relationship in most of those situations.
Kallie (2): Well, it's become like anything, you know, another market, another industry, which is really terrible to see sometimes. But you become, you know, like you said, they have, being, providers are being dictated how long they have for a visit, how many patients they have to see, they, how to be profitable.
Kallie (2): I mean, I'm a labor and delivery nurse and a lot of, and gynecology offices or labor and delivery units have been wiped out of small communities. I'm from a, a small community in Indiana, and they no longer offer maternity services because maternity services are typically not [00:39:00] moneymakers.
Samantha (2): Yeah.
Kallie (2): you have women who stay in a room sometimes for a while without any type of treatment, so to speak, billable
Samantha (2): Mm-hmm.
Kallie (2): And so, that's just become the reality that it's not a moneymaking thing, you know, it has to be profitable and doctors are now being you know, who to see, when, to see how long you have to see them, and and have to bill everything.
Kallie (2): You know, it's,
Samantha (2): Yeah.
Kallie (2): become a lot about the money.
Samantha (2): Yeah. That de and that definitely shifts the kinds of interventions that become popular or used a lot, right? If you are thinking about how do I stay afloat as an institution, what we wanna be able to bill, and that means. Shifting towards interventions that we can bill for or diagnoses codes that we could bill for as opposed to things that maybe the, so the solution is a lot simpler or it takes a lot more conversation time, but that's not how you get your bread and butter.
Samantha (2): Like, that's how you bring home [00:40:00] the bacon. So there's sort of a conflict between the financial incentives that that are like, as human beings, we need, we need to make money at our jobs. And, but that sometimes complicates relationship between doctor and patient. 'Cause the doctor isn't necessarily getting compensated for an outcome of producing healthy patient.
Kallie (2): right. Right.
Samantha (2): When, so when we talk, when I talk about these conversations a lot, when I write about these things as a Roman Catholic, it's very common to face the, to be labeled as anti-science, just be, oh, you're a faith person. You're not reasonable, you're anti-science. Does the CBC face that objection as well?
Samantha (2): Like you're an anti-science organization, or do you, are you able to avoid that because you're not speaking from a, a religious tradition as individuals? Maybe you are, but not as a, as an organizational, you have like an organizational affiliation with a particular thing.
Kallie (2): right. We are, as an organization, not religious, we are just an educational nonprofit. [00:41:00] We work with many different people who believe many different things. That's one thing I love about my job, is I get to work with. So many different people. And again, that might agree with us on one issue and not another, and that's super cool, whatever.
Kallie (2): But it's really fun to work with people with different backgrounds. As far as the critique about not being rooted in science I don't think I've come across that critique too often. I do get, we do get labeled a lot as a religious organ. You know, they're like, oh, there's those you know, conservative,
Samantha (2): Fundamental
Kallie (2): religious organization and we're not. But, and our view is that critique in and of itself is rooted in science, right? Like experiments, critique, asking question. That is the science. That is science.
Samantha (2): right.
Kallie (2): and so we have that and also alongside it, a deep respect for ethics. I like to say one of my favorite things to say. Is that I'm not anti-technology.[00:42:00]
Kallie (2): I am a pro human dignity. So as again, as a nurse, I am not anti-drugs and medications. But I am kind of anti-big pharma and the role, you know, and, and big pharma as we know it, when, you know, painkillers came on the market and we started being able to put commercials on TV for pharmaceuticals, right?
Kallie (2): So I'm not against medicine and, and, and giving medication, but we do have this kind of leeriness of big pharma, so to speak. And so I draw the parallel there, like I am not against good reproductive healthcare, but I am very much against the big fertility industry. I think that there are alternatives that we can pursue instead. And so, you know, again, I am not anti-technology. I'm not anti-medicine, but I am pro. dignity. And I'm not afraid to ask uncomfortable questions that other people will shy away from. [00:43:00] We aren't as an organization. And we do that because we believe that science and medicine should serve people, not profit at a person's expense. And, and, and so if we kind of keep that lens, I don't think, again, too many people can critique us by saying we're anti-science. We always welcome dialogue grounded in evidence. Like I said, we've done our own IRB approved research study on surrogate mothers. And what we found was, what we've seen is that it's high risk in nature, that those women are more likely to have complications and health risks and to go home with postpartum depression. So anyway, we do root our work in science, in ethics in education.
Samantha (2): And also kind of as we're, as we're talking and you're talking about like this, the nature of scientific investigation, it strikes me as sort of ironically dogmatic to label any position as anti-science, [00:44:00] especially when it's. Participating in the ongoing development of science and, and looking at the harms that come about as a result of certain medical procedures.
Samantha (2): That's data. And that's part that should be part of the, the ongoing scientific investigation. So to say that examining those things could be anti-science is, I think actually more dogmatic than a belief in human dignity that is rooted in certain religious tradition that says, let's look at the evidence and make sure we're not harming people.
Kallie (2): Right. I mean, science at its core is, it gets better by asking questions. The more questions you ask, the more that you can know and understand. So science should not. Turn its back on hard questions.
Samantha (2): Do you see any models of like, clinics, communities, providers who are getting it right?
Kallie (2): Ooh, that's a tough question.
Kallie (2): Do, And you know, my lens is a little bit [00:45:00] narrow I am a certain location, right. But there in, if you're in San Francisco, San Francisco Bay Area, there's a new primary care that I think just opened. I don't think they just opened. I know they just opened, but I think they are get, there's a new primary care called Bella Primary Care that is new that I think is doing things right.
Kallie (2): I think that they are doing well. I think that there are providers within the bigger, hospital organizations that are also doing things right. I think that there are organizations really in the last couple of years there have been a myriad of organizations who are questioning gender medicine and who are doing right by people, by exploring there. So yeah, I think sometimes they might be hard to find, but I do believe that there are people there who are providing what we might call good medicine, who are doing, who are, who are, would be on my list of winners, so to speak. And you know, I think if I might segue a little bit I think [00:46:00] that at the Center for Bioethics and Culture are, we have an intellectual arm, so to speak, or a project called the Paul Ramsey Institute where we are hoping to create or to help, nurture people academics, doctors, lawyers, those in influential spaces who are doing, who will be doing good work. And so I think that there are people out there. I think there are people out there learning who are gearing up to be those voices. Yeah, absolutely.
Samantha (2): Yeah. I wanna follow up on the Paul Ramsey Institute in a minute. But in terms of like the everyday person who's listening, what are some concrete things that anybody could do to be part of the solution on, on any of these issues?
Kallie (2): Oh, I think one, educate yourself, right? Like you don't know what you don't know. And so, if this is the first time you're learning about big fertility, first time you're learning about gender medicine, explore those. Why are they important? Why am I [00:47:00] talking to you about them? I think that's the first thing that you can do is to understand the issues. And, and then go from there, you know, have conversations with others about these things as well. It's so funny. My husband talks about going to a party with me and he's like, you absolutely are terrible at small talk. You will walk into a room, you'll find strangers, and then be like, oh, so what do you believe about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Kallie (2): Like, there's no, how's the weather? Now, I don't think everyone should have that approach. Absolutely not. But I think that we engage people with these,
Samantha (2): Yeah.
Kallie (2): about it, right? We open up our homes to have meals with people, and we just talk about these issues and we, we, we don't shy away from conversation about things that we, we might disagree on, but I think at a very minimum, learn about something and then find out what other people believe about it too, and just start conversation.
Samantha (2): Yeah, my, my husband had that same kind of a personality. He, when he was, well, he converted to Catholicism when he was a teenager. So first, [00:48:00] just, first of all, not the typical teenage experience, but he would sit down with his family who believed all different kinds of things and be like, so what does everybody think about abortion?
Samantha (2): And they'd be like, why do you wanna talk about these things? You're making us uncomfortable. But still like those are the most if you can have the conversation with grace
Kallie (2): Right. And compassion. I
Samantha (2): yeah, then.
Kallie (2): is an incredibly terrible, lonely, awful cross to bear. And I don't think people can understand that unless you're the one walking in that. And so yes, you absolutely need to have compassion and understanding and grace. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Samantha (2): Yeah. But, and then by making yourself available to have that conversation though, that's part of how we help each other bear those crosses.
Kallie (2): Mm-hmm.
Samantha (2): You shared a little bit about the Paul Ramsey [00:49:00] Institute. I know it's especially dear to your heart. And it's how we first became acquainted to begin with.
Samantha (2): So could you share more about its mission and how it carries forward, Paul Ramsey's legacy today, and maybe why that legacy is so crucial today?
Kallie (2): Yeah, so the Paul Ramsey Institute is really our remedy to the problem today. The problem we talked about, about medicine, becoming medicine, going off the rails laws off the rails, academia off the rails. This is kind of our remedy to that. And it's an intellectual arm, if you will, of the CB. C. and like you said, designed to carry forward the legacy of Paul Ramsey. And Paul Ramsey. His work emphasized the sanctity of human life and the moral obligations of medicine. And so our institute brings together leading [00:50:00] scholars and young professionals. So, what we would call fellows. We have scholars and fellows and we have currently six scholars serving and we bring in a small group of fellows. And fellows are young professionals. They're graduate students law students, medical students and others, maybe early career in those spaces as well. So that they can engage with the scholars and with one another on these deeply. Moral questions that medicine and bioethics is posing. And so everything from AI in healthcare to embryo research to assisted suicide and other topics as well.
Samantha (2): Yeah. Awesome. And for podcast listeners, I encourage you to go back and to listen to the first episode of this season with Emma Waters, who is an incoming Paul Ramsey fellow. We talked about the tism of Silicon Valley and the new, the new wave of eugenics that is really breaking over [00:51:00] the IVF industry.
Samantha (2): How do you sustain your hope and clarity when this subject matter is so heavy?
Kallie (2): there's a lot really, honestly, because there are times that this is a really hard job to do. What keeps me grounded and hopeful is the undeniable power of truth. Of the stories that I get to peer, I am humbled that people share their stories with me, that they would email me and provide such tender, intimate details about their lives. So even in the face of pushback, get to see how sharing experiences like those of surrogate mothers like those of egg donors and how that resonates deeply with listeners, with others. And it, how it sparks meaningful conversation. So it reminds me that beneath the controversy, beneath the hate, there are real lives that I'm fighting for, that, you know, deserve [00:52:00] dignity, that deserve respect and deserve protection.
Kallie (2): When we think about the 20 children who, that we, we talked about earlier I am, you know. I, I stay motivated by knowing that there are people, like the parents who watch our films who write to us who thank us. I'm, I moved by the emails from Paul Ramsey fellows who have graduated. You know, after their fellowship, sometimes I get an email that encourages me. And so I, encouraged through these little, little glimpses and little thank yous. And, you know, I think I'm also really encouraged right now because I do think that there are a growing number of people who are waking up to the harms of gender medicine. And I'd like to say that we played a very small part, maybe even bigger part, but we played. played a part in that, and that keeps me really encouraged as well. And then of course, I can't forget, you know, the support and partnership of those who have come along beside me, who have gone before [00:53:00] me. The, the founder of the Center for Bioethics and Culture, Jennifer Law for generous individuals who fund the work that we do for families and other organizations who share in this vision. All of that reminds me that I'm not alone. We're a small organization, but there are people who are rooting for us, who are encouraging me. And, and so all of that together keeps me moving forward and keeps me inspired.
Kallie (2): I have two small daughters and they keep me anchored.
Kallie (2): When we were doing the film, the Detransition Diaries cat who's featured in the film, she's also a musician. She wrote a song for the film that's in the film and then at the credits, and it's a song called I'm Stardust. And at the time I'm getting goosebumps telling this, but at the time. When she wrote it, I was listening to it to see where it fit in the lyrics, and I picked up my firstborn, who I only had at the time.
Kallie (2): She was small and we were just dancing around the room and just, I'm [00:54:00] Stardust. And I was just like, that's a moment I think about because now I have two daughters and I want a world, and I work towards a world where she will know that her body is not a problem. Her body is not a product or a commodity. And I, I want them to know that they can grow up and ask hard questions.
Samantha (2): Yeah.
Kallie (2): and, and it's okay to question things. And so right now they are probably my biggest anchor because, and I didn't start this work with little ones, and I've, I think my, I've become more passionate about it because of them. But you know, they keep me anchored and motivated as well. Because I have stake in the game now too.
Samantha (2): Great. So a one concluding question to ask every guest is who is one person, dead or alive, real or fictional? Who you believe exemplifies the [00:55:00] very best of what it means to be human?
Kallie (2): Oh, that's a really hard question. I guess I'm gonna go with the easy out, since I've got one and I'm gonna say Paul Ramsey. Paul
Samantha (2): Okay.
Kallie (2): comes to mind because he's someone, you know, I, we have a whole, a whole arm to our organization dedicated in, in his name. He asked hard questions and what I like about Paul Ramsey in particular and what I think, his humanness is his. He wasn't afraid to dissect something for a very long time and then change his mind about it. And I like that. I like that characteristic. From what I'm told about Paul Ramsey, he loved people, he loved truth. I'm truth seeker myself. And so I think Paul Ramsey would be, would be the person, you know, like I said, easy out though because you just asked me about the Paul Ramsey Institute.
Kallie (2): So.
Samantha (2): Excellent. I love it. Where can listeners find the c, b, c view the documentaries and follow your work?
Kallie (2): People can find us@cbcnetwork.org. Like I said, all of our films are free on [00:56:00] YouTube. Our YouTube handle, I always mess this up, but it's CBC network org is our YouTube channel. You can follow me personally on X. That's kind of the only social media place I am. Cal But more broadly, our organization is on Facebook, social media, Instagram, and all the above as well.
Kallie (2): But if you wanna interact with me, find me on X, send me a message. And of course, if anyone's local listening and you're interested in helping out or expand our outreach through giving, then also you can contact us as well.
Samantha (2): Yeah. Okay, great. And we'll put all of those links in the show notes.
Samantha (2): Thank you so much for your time today for everything that you're doing with the CBC. I'm very blessed to have heard from you today. Thank you.
Kallie (2): Thank you so much for the conversation. What a great, what a great one.
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